Everquest Shadowknight Forums

Everquest Shadowknight Forums (http://eqshadowknight.net/index.php)
-   Class Balance Suggestions (http://eqshadowknight.net/forumdisplay.php?f=26)
-   -   knight aggro comparison (http://eqshadowknight.net/showthread.php?t=8986)

Xanathol 04-25-2017 04:47 PM

knight aggro comparison
 
Some of the typical characters on the DBG forum keep trying to push a slanted view of the current state of aggro between the knights, so that they can go past adjusting needed items and move straight into (more of) an advantage, so I figured we should cover it here.

There is rumor that at least one paladin spell is not producing the aggro it is supposed to. If that is the case, that is a fix issue, not a design one. The below is the intended values of spells & AAs that each class should typically use for aggro. If you see something missing or a correction, please note it.



Paladin Single Target:
Brilliant Vindication 3 - 4626, 18.5s reuse
Crush of Povar 3 - 13596, 24.5 reuse
Valiant Defense 3 - 10117 + 7124, 6.5 reuse
Ardent Force 3 - 7903 + stun, 13s reuse
Crush of the Darkened Sea 3 - 17472, 12.5s reuse
Force of Disruption - 15000, 9.1s reuse
Divine Call - 8000, 45s reuse
Divine Stun - 2340 + stun, 9s reuse
Dichotomic Force - 6000 + 11207, 60s reuse
*Harmonious Blessing 3 - 9336 + stun + heal(7600 * group), 3m reuse, 2m dur


Paladin AE:
Valiant Defense 3 - 7124, 6.5 reuse (up for debate)
Beacon of the Righteous - 14000 + 6750 * (5 +3) + stun, 90s reuse
Hallowed Lodestar - 11650 + 5650 * (3 + ?) + stun, 5m reuse



SK Single Target:
Terror of Narus 3 - 13410, 6s reuse
Terror of Poira 3 - 11310, 6
s reuse
Hate's Attraction - 18000, 45
s reuse
Spear of Vizat 3 - 11177, 24.2s reuse
Dichotomic Fang - 12000 + 22414, 60s reuse
Vicious Bite of Chaos - 8000, 60s reuse
Veil of Darkness - 35000, 5m reuse
*Harmonious Disruption 3 - 20668 + heal( 13425 ) + 14641 + 4%

SK AE:
Distasteful Bargin 3 - 20482, 30.75s reuse
Deceiful Deflection 3 - 3108 + 4542 + 2316, 6.5s reuse
Explosion of Spite - 12000, 45s reuse
Explosion of Haterd - 12000, 45s reuse
Stream of Hatred - 13000, 60s reuse
*Harmonious Disruption 3 - 20668 + 14641 + 4%


I put an * next to Harmonious for both because (1) I think they are all bad for the game (2) they are dependent on heals received, thus no way to calculate a value (3) diffencies between the spells can be addressed completely separate from the others.


For comparison's sake, here are SK spells with VoT / Touch running:
Terror of Narus 3 - 16763, 6s reuse
Terror of Poira 3 - 14138, 6
s reuse
Hate's Attraction - 22500, 45
s reuse
Spear of Vizat 3 - 13971, 24.2s reuse
Dichotomic Fang - 15000 + 28018, 60s reuse
Vicious Bite of Chaos - 10000, 60s reuse
Veild of Darkness - 43750, 5m reuse
Harmonious Disruption 3 (single) - 25835 + heal( 16781 ) + 18301 + 4%

Distasteful Bargin 3 - 25603, 30.75s reuse
Deceiful Deflection 3 - 3885 + 5678 + 2895, 6.5s reuse
Explosion of Spite - 15000, 45s reuse
Explosion of Haterd - 15000, 45s reuse
Stream of Hatred - 16250, 60s reuse
Harmonious Disruption 3 (ae) - 18301 + 4%


So now the fun stuff. In a perfect world where you never experienced any lag at all in firing an ability, the max theorhetical hate for each is below, minus harmonious, with the spell order & timing noted (5m+ reuse abilities not used):


SK in 30s on a single target, w/o AEs:
ToN, HA, 1.5 Dicho, Bite, 3.0 ToP, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 Spear, 9.0 ToP, 12.0 ToN, 15.0 ToP, 18.0 ToN, 21.0 ToP, 24.0 ToN, 27.0 ToP, 30 ToN
= 208601
w VoT = 260751

SK in 30s on a single target, w AEs:
ToN, HA, EoS, EoH, SoH, 1.5 Dicho, Bite, 3.0 ToP, 4.5 DB, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 DD, 9.0 ToP, 12.0 ToN, 15.0 ToP, 16.5 DD, 18.0 ToN, 21.0 ToP, 24.0 ToN, 25.5 DD, 27.0 ToP, 30 ToN
= 284804
w VoT = 356005

SK in 30s, AEs only:
EoS, EoH, SoH, 1.5 DB, 3.0 DD, 9.5 DD, 16 DD, 22.5 DD, 29 DD
= 107312
w VoT = 134140



Pally in 30s, w/o AEs:
CoDS, FoD, DC, DS, 1.5 Dicho, 3.0 VD, 4.5 CoP, 6.0 AF, 7.5 BV, 9.0 DS, 9.1 FoD, 9.5 VD, 12.5 CoDS, 16.0 VD, 18.0 DS, 18.2 FoD, 19.0 AF, 22.5 VD, 25.0 CoDS, 26.5 BV, 27 DS, 27.3 FoD, 29 VD
= 271842

Pally in 30s, w AEs (just add in BoR):
= 319592

Pally in 30s, AE only (just AE w/1 target):
BoR, VD, 6.5 VD, 13 VD, 19.5 VD, 26 VD
= 83370



Side by side comparison

30s on a single target, w/o AEs:
SK: 208601 SK-VoT: 260751 Pally: 271842

30s on a single target, w AEs:
SK: 284804 SK-VoT: 356005 Pally: 319592

in 30s, AEs:
SK: 107312 SK-VoT: 134140 Pally: 83370




In the above, I have no contributions from heals factored in (whether they are truly capped on aggro or not) nor anything a stun might produce. I haven't tested stun aggro in a while but I know when hate overrides first went in, they did not properly limit stuns and I highly doubt that has ever changed (ie. stun effects probably still add aggro on top of hate override values). The take away is that without even factoring those effects in, Paladin single target only aggro is higher than an SK using Voice of Thule / Touch of Holmein.


The reply on the DBG forums is "but omg your AE hate!" - check out the above numbers. In a 30 second duration, only with Voice of Thule / Touch of Holmein does an SK win out on a single target when adding in AE hate spells / AAs.

Let's compare the AA abilities directly:

Pally
Beacon of the Righteous - 14000 + 6750 * (5 +3) + stun, 90s reuse
Hallowed Lodestar - 11650 + 5650 * (3 + ?) + stun, 5m reuse

SK
Explosion of Spite - 12000, 45s reuse
Explosion of Haterd - 12000, 45s reuse
Stream of Hatred - 13000, 60s reuse

Beacon is 756 hate/s over its 90 second reuse. EoS + EoH combine for 533 hate/s, add in SoH and it is 750 hate/sec. With VoT, it is 666 / 938, respectively. The point is, Beacon is already really, really good. The 'problem' for Paladins is it is spread out over time and the reuse is not conducive to a fast killing group that is mass pulling.


If Paladins want to see Beacon or Lodestar reworked for faster reuse, that should happen only on the condition that the aggro is lowered as well - Paladins should not have better AE aggro via AAs than SKs. If the devs aren't careful, that is exactly what they will get, and the parties pushing the agenda are very well aware of that.

As for single target aggro, if they want more aggro, then great - but so do we. Outside of any value adjustments, perhaps they could use some spell consolidation. Their single target aggro is already larger than ours. I am sure the parties pushing that line are very well aware of that as well, despite their feigned outrage.

Harmonious is a completely separate beast altogether and personally, while I use it for the ease of it, I wish it didn't exist. Paladins should definitely NOT get aggro adjustments to other spells / AAs to compensate; harmonious balance should be contained to the harmonious spells themselves.



Please add your thoughts, rebuttals, corrections, etc. I want to head this thing off before the moaning builds a head of steam and people start to support something that is being misrepresented to them (shocking, I know).

sojero 04-25-2017 07:12 PM

many agro abilities do not report correctly in parsers, such as crush produces more agro than is reported. It is not as easy as what you have put up there, but then again no pallies in my guild suffer from any issues that the others complain about.

As to the ae, meh im neither here nor there.

I wish all harmonious would go away, but if they dont, they should get the agro on theirs increased.

also pally hate over time from their ae dont stack, so you have to reduce the agro from them if you were stacking them in 30 seconds.

I also dont know of any pally that uses dicho.

You also left out veil of darkness 35000 hate (cant remember the recast)

You also have to add in that paladins have marrs, they may not want to use it, but it does reduce agro for other group members.

does anyone use Distasteful Bargin 3? I cannot remember the last time i loaded one of that line.

Xanathol 04-25-2017 10:28 PM

That's part of my point - crushes, stuns, etc always did more than the hate override value but even without the ability to factor that in, they are still ahead. Same here btw - I know Pallies that lock things down hard.

I understand their want to handle batches of mobs for groups, just as long as it is kept in check. Didn't know that about the ae hate dot not stacking - will adjust whenever servers come up and I can update a bit more. Also forgot that Valiant's heal should be AE.

I don't know an SK that uses dicho for aggro either but I'll be damned if an asshat didn't bring it up on the DBG site, so I included them both.

Completely forgot about veil's aggro - waiting on servers to get recast. Also agree on Marr's, but that is immeasurable in such a comparison.

I'll pop distasteful on Emo but that's about it, really. But again, be damned if not brought up.

Xanathol 04-25-2017 11:47 PM

Updated to list Veil (which is 5m reuse like Lodestar), remove Lodestar from AE count (cus @ 5m reuse, it shouldn't be in there) and add in Valiant's recourse heal hate mod to AE hate (still not adding the heal hate itself).

sojero 04-26-2017 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol (Post 227698)
That's part of my point - crushes, stuns, etc always did more than the hate override value but even without the ability to factor that in, they are still ahead. Same here btw - I know Pallies that lock things down hard.

I understand their want to handle batches of mobs for groups, just as long as it is kept in check. Didn't know that about the ae hate dot not stacking - will adjust whenever servers come up and I can update a bit more. Also forgot that Valiant's heal should be AE.

I don't know an SK that uses dicho for aggro either but I'll be damned if an asshat didn't bring it up on the DBG site, so I included them both.

Completely forgot about veil's aggro - waiting on servers to get recast. Also agree on Marr's, but that is immeasurable in such a comparison.

I'll pop distasteful on Emo but that's about it, really. But again, be damned if not brought up.

I will actually use dicho for hate. in really fast groups where everything else is down

or

raid adds where it has to be locked down immediately, I will do terror on inc, veil, spear, bite, dicho. That will usually lock the mob down, give me more survivalbility and a big heal so the healers have even more time to switch to me.

Also, and this may just be me but I think valiant was never supposed to be AE hate. Could you imagine pally with 6 sec AE hate? Fuck that noise. I never saw, or remembered a hate override set on the heal, only the initial dd. If it was there, I believe it was a bug. Sadly it was just after I stopped playing with my wives pally and quit playing the game so much, so I dont know.

Xanathol 04-26-2017 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojero (Post 227700)
I will actually use dicho for hate. in really fast groups where everything else is down

or

raid adds where it has to be locked down immediately, I will do terror on inc, veil, spear, bite, dicho. That will usually lock the mob down, give me more survivalbility and a big heal so the healers have even more time to switch to me.

Also, and this may just be me but I think valiant was never supposed to be AE hate. Could you imagine pally with 6 sec AE hate? Fuck that noise. I never saw, or remembered a hate override set on the heal, only the initial dd. If it was there, I believe it was a bug. Sadly it was just after I stopped playing with my wives pally and quit playing the game so much, so I dont know.

I've never known anyone to use it that way. In fast groups, I use it for dps. I really can't think of a time I've had all aggro tools down but it, but ok.

For raids, I'm using it for healing - not aggro. On a single, meanass target, I'm going to use flash or veil if up and save dicho for a spike after it is down; even moreso if neither is up. I've never once said "need more aggro - hit dicho!" - nor knew someone who had; it was always the heal that was desired.

I'm not certain on the AE bit on valiant either but Raven's friend thinks it was suppose to and Maedrohos or whatever thinks it wasn't (so that's another vote 'for' since he rarely ever gets shit right). All we need is Shiftie to downplay it and we'll know for certain it was intended. ;)

sojero 04-26-2017 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol (Post 227701)
I've never known anyone to use it that way. In fast groups, I use it for dps. I really can't think of a time I've had all aggro tools down but it, but ok.

For raids, I'm using it for healing - not aggro. On a single, meanass target, I'm going to use flash or veil if up and save dicho for a spike after it is down; even moreso if neither is up. I've never once said "need more aggro - hit dicho!" - nor knew someone who had; it was always the heal that was desired.

I'm not certain on the AE bit on valiant either but Raven's friend thinks it was suppose to and Maedrohos or whatever thinks it wasn't (so that's another vote 'for' since he rarely ever gets shit right). All we need is Shiftie to downplay it and we'll know for certain it was intended. ;)

I Mainly use dicho for the heal too. An example of when i use it is on the drakes during ancient dragon. They have a big directional AE, so what I will do is terror them to tag, veil and then dicho, it will heal the ae I just ate, the veil protects me from taking a quad hit, and the dps jump on it so fast you have to have good agro. They usually target mine first.

I usually run with 2 terrors up, but for some reason, I have had times where both terrors were down, spear was down, so I had to use dicho to get agro, but I dont usually save it for that. Also I dont usually let it stay up long either, as it is really good dps, so I dont let it sit long.

I think the heal portion doing AE agro was the same bug or similar bug that was allowing them to do ae agro with the cleric shinning line. I dont have any belief that the dev crew would give them a 6 sec recast ae agro.

Xanathol 04-26-2017 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojero (Post 227702)
I dont have any belief that the dev crew would give them a 6 sec recast ae agro.

The same dev crew that put in the shining heal aggro, gave them better 'lifetaps', gave then 400% crit dmg + 44.5% HHE that stacks with proc'd skill attacks, increase crit & cripple chance, increase all skills dmg, etc, etc? :)

Your faith is stronger than mine, hehe.

shiftie 04-26-2017 02:13 PM

I don't understand your break down of aggro.

Are you listing a sequence of casts?

sojero 04-26-2017 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiftie (Post 227704)
I don't understand your break down of aggro.

Are you listing a sequence of casts?

yes, and I think he put in the 1.5 XXX, 3.0 XXX as to the seconds, when it should be 1.8 for gcd. he is putting AA in there between casts.

That is the way i read and understood it. If i am wrong he can correct me.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.