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Old 08-27-2012, 11:09 PM   #1
Slein Jinn
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Default SK Class Secondary Area of Need: Shift in DPS Delivery

Voting for these items is now open in this thread. This thread is now available for discussion of the items up for voting, lobbying for votes for a particular idea, etc. Please stay on-topic in this thread; trolling, derailments, etc. will be moved here.
We've previously identified DPS tools which foster a shift away from layering old DoT's by encouraging players to cast other spells instead as the secondary area of need for the Shadowknight class. Our capability for DPS is broadly where it should be in relation to other classes at the moment, but the delivery method of our DPS causes certain problems for the class. SK's are disproportionately reliant upon swapping out entire spell lineups depending upon what they're doing; to maximise our DPS, we must sacrifice our entire lineup of tanking spells. Furthermore, limited mob debuff slots are a reality in modern EQ, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify using that limited resource on the older, weaker DoT's SK's need in order to deliver their DPS when Necromancers, Shamans, etc. could use those same slots to better effect. We've already got a lot of discussion on this subject in this thread, but I want to set up a focused brainstorm to make sure all of the best ideas are collected in one place. I've reproduced many of the more promising ideas from that thread below:
  • Gift of Deathly Resolve style activated AA.
  • Funeral Pyre style activated AA.
  • An activated ability that greatly reduces the recast of Spear spells (similar to how our UF BP click functioned).
  • A new Direct Damage spell line with no/shorter reuse tuned such that it would out compete our older/weaker DoT's for casting opportunities.
  • A spell-based swarm pet. This could also quite naturally serve as an offensive spell to use with Gift of Magic procs in more sustained DPS contexts, which is something SK's don't really have a clear example of at the moment.
  • A nuke with a recourse that twincasts the next DoT spell cast along the lines of this proposal. Draws inspiration from the Paladin Glorious line of nukes, which twincasts the next heal spell cast.
----- Oh, and not a suggestion as such, but just to be clear: we categorically do not want a copy of Necromancers' Lingering Death. I've seen a couple of people mention wanting this, but it would have the exact opposite effect on our DPS delivery from what we're trying to achieve. Extending durations would marry us to old DoT's even more closely. It's much better if our DoT's run their course more quickly so that we have to reapply them more often; shorter durations consume more casting opportunities and so help to obsolete older DoT's. I will continue editing this post as we move forward.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:16 PM   #2
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Folks, through the early voting an awful lot of people seem to be focusing on the long-shots of the list. A powerful low/no recast nuke is hands-down the least likely item on that list for us to get implemented. A spell-based swarm pet would be a quite welcome addition to our lineup, but in practice it can't solve the big problems on its own the way some of the other suggestions can because it's going to have a non-trivial recast timer. Given what's realistic to expect from a spear recast reduction disc (there is simply no nearby possible universe in which we're ever going to get 0-5s recast spears even if the disc only lasted 30 seconds), that's not going to be able to have nearly the same impact on the situation, either. The best solutions to the SK DPS situation are going to come in the form of activated abilities and/or intraclass synergies. Funeral Pyre, Gift of Deathly Resolve, and Devious Indictment are all abilities that can dramatically address this issue, and they're all very realistic goals to hope to see the light of day. I can say with complete certainty that the best chance the class has to see real positive changes made this Beta cycle would be for those three items to make the final list. If we could get a Funeral Pyre clone (or something similar to it) and either one of the other two (Gift of Deathly Resolve / Devious Indictment), we could rubber stamp this issue as "Solved" and file it away indefinitely. Please don't squander this opportunity by lobbying for long shots. We have a chance to take a real plausible proposal to the table which will properly address this issue.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:20 PM   #3
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I'd like to point out the unrealistic nature of at least one idea as an indication of the overall problem. I don't think you guys are quite understanding the limits of the aa vs spell boundaries. As I understand it this is for AA purposes only. Correct me if I'm wrong. Operating on that premise... A swarm pet that functions like the beastlord/mage/necro spell is the domain of Aristo. Spells for the most part are concrete, they do not or have not in recent expansions taken player suggestions for new spell creation. What is or appears on day 1 of beta is usually what is or is not (if it gets scrapped) what gets pushed live aside from "tuning". In terms of then passing this idea off as something aimed for AA IRC chats and dps balance for your class or a retooling of the method of delivery. 1. If you don't have a spell swarm pet, and aristo doesn't think you need one, you are very unlikely to get Elidroth to accept this method of deliver. He wouldn't even give paladins nullify magic as an aa because he said he didn't want to make AA to substitute for spells. They for some reason like the idea of spell book restrictions for casters which is odd b/c there are no restrictions for melee outside of linked timers. 2. This gives you absolutely no reason to redefine how you dps. It would only serve as a dps boost and not actually addressing the problem you guys see as I understand it. Working within the confines of what is and is not possible makes the ideas plausible. Sure you can ask for something outlandish but the chances of it happening are not very high. I get that the idea is debuff cap limitation and if the cap is met your dots are meaningless in which case adding a spell based swarm pet can replace the dot as a form of physical damage. That sounds good on paper but unless they go around linking recast timers of dots and swarm pets and then also make the swarm pets unable to tank it causes multiple balance issues for the situation where the dot and the swarm pet can be used together. I think you guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you continue along that frame of mind/thought process. just my 2cp probably not wanted b/c evil paladin but there you go.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:29 AM   #4
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As I understand it this is for AA purposes only. Correct me if I'm wrong. Operating on that premise...
It's not strictly for AA ideas, but AA ideas are more likely to bear fruit.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:50 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by shiftie View Post
I think you guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you continue along that frame of mind/thought process. just my 2cp probably not wanted b/c evil paladin but there you go.
We have some really practical solutions that would achieve the stated goal really effectively, but the way the voting is going, we're going to wind up getting nothing at all. Hurrah for democracy.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slein Jinn View Post
We have some really practical solutions that would achieve the stated goal really effectively, but the way the voting is going, we're going to wind up getting nothing at all. Hurrah for democracy.
That's why when I collected feedback I filtered out the ideas that were restricted too much to be viable. It might have made me an asshole, but in the end we got things accomplished. Asking for a swarm pet that surrounds a mob from all sides and keeps it locked there sounds awesome on paper. Convincing a dev that it would be practical and worthwhile to code... not so much.
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:09 PM   #7
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Well, they're not really bad ideas in and of themselves--I did filter the properly crazy stuff--the problem isn't that those options are getting votes, the problem is that the better options aren't. I'd not mind at all if one made the list, and even if two made the final cut we'd still have a shout at making some real progress, but I'm seeing a lot of people voting the three ideas that are least likely in practice to resolve the stated issue as 1, 2, 3. Hell, I think I'm the one who brought up the spell-based swarm pet in the first place months ago. I do think it's something that would benefit the class and can be justified in terms of both design and balance quite reasonably, but the fact of the matter is there are better items on the list for dealing with the class's issues. If none or even only one of the real proper solutions on the list make the final cut, though, we're going to paint ourselves into a corner.
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:50 PM   #8
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Well, they're not really bad ideas in and of themselves--I did filter the properly crazy stuff--the problem isn't that those options are getting votes, the problem is that the better options aren't. I'd not mind at all if one made the list, and even if two made the final cut we'd still have a shout at making some real progress, but I'm seeing a lot of people voting the three ideas that are least likely in practice to resolve the stated issue as 1, 2, 3. Hell, I think I'm the one who brought up the spell-based swarm pet in the first place months ago. I do think it's something that would benefit the class and can be justified in terms of both design and balance quite reasonably, but the fact of the matter is there are better items on the list for dealing with the class's issues. If none or even only one of the real proper solutions on the list make the final cut, though, we're going to paint ourselves into a corner.
b/c of eq game mechanics sk and a viable swarm pet will probably never be in the same sentence. And like I said unless you got with aristo before a beta period that shit is set in stone. "Spells" are done as they always are besides numbers tuning in beta. AA creation is the only caveat to the whole set in stone beta nonsense.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:53 PM   #9
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b/c of eq game mechanics sk and a viable swarm pet will probably never be in the same sentence. And like I said unless you got with aristo before a beta period that shit is set in stone. "Spells" are done as they always are besides numbers tuning in beta. AA creation is the only caveat to the whole set in stone beta nonsense.
The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo Like I said, I totally understand that it's a long shot, but I do think it's something that makes sense for the class to have. I'm not opposed to the final list reaching a bit at all, but I do see a real problem with presenting a list without a single truly viable solution. One long shot on the final cut is one thing, but a final cut that's nothing but long shots is quite another.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:43 PM   #10
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Well TBH, I didn't vote and rank based on the likelihood of getting the ability. I voted based on whether *I* ever thought about wanting it before, whether I would use it, or whether I thought it'd be useful [to me]. So -- if a "Ubar Boss DT" ability was on the list, I'd probably have voted for it, even though I knew the likelihood we'd get it was low (intentional extreme example). I also assumed that the "really out there" proposals would have been filtered out already. I see now after reading this post, and comparing my votes/rankings to say, SJ's, I am one of the long-shot guys (didn't realize it at the time of voting, I just... voted). That said, I would have thought there would have been TONS of votes by now, rendering my individual votes a statistical blip. While I know that being a representative of the SK community to bring forth collective ideas, you'd intuitively want to pass on what's voted for; HOWEVER, I think it'd be permissible to weight/influence/bend the results as long as it's public; on the lines of we voted you in to make those decisions for us (although I guess we didn't vote but you get the drift). No matter how much I love the class, I'll never be a vocal member of the community. Early on in EQ, we all dealt with what we were given. Later in EQ, we might be able to now influence what we are given (beta's, CR's, forums, etc.), but I am too old skool - we got brussell sprouts and we like em .
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