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Old 02-24-2015, 10:25 PM   #11
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Show them a side by side Warr/SK/Pal parse. ....but do it behind closed doors via PM or IRC. If you don't have the devs ear, then give the parses to someone you trust to lay it out in front of them in IRC chat. Its what I did with Mykaylla.
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Old 02-24-2015, 11:16 PM   #12
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SK agro is fine ATM, I don't have issues with anyone pulling agro off me if I do it right, when I slack, sure, but if going full agro no dps class can/will do it. if you need help with agro, send me a pm, or say something on the forum and ill give you my lineup. I have a ranger that uses all his high agro stuff all the time and doesn't pull it from me. Haven't played with a wiz in a while, they might if they get retarded about it. As for our DPS, what kind of parses do we need to do to show him, if I remember right Zarzac said one of my parses kept us held down because of how good I was doing and posting it, when I honestly think my dps still sucks. I can do way more on my group geared wiz. I can pretty much sustain what I can burn for on my sk.
The only time I lose aggro is a journeyman V caster merc without subtlety AAs on burn assisting on inc (have a ranger friend who just gets kicks out of it). Even with VoT & EoA mask, if it crits before I can get terror #2 off, it will pop up on the target window. But that's not really the point. The point is that a dev sat there and purposely decided to give Warriors a 10-11k hate 'spell', then purposely decided to give a Paladin 4 second up-to-level-108 stun over 8k hate in the override field, and then - for some unexplained reason - looked at SKs and purposely decided that an SK hate only spell should provide less hate than either of the other two. How the hell does one justify that? At least Prathun knew he was dealing with a bug at the time and matched the two despite the bug - the current incarnation doesn't even do that!
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:21 AM   #13
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If you are having issues before you get your second hate spell off, use mindless hatred at the beginning of each fight. I keep agro off burn mercs by casting teror on inc, mindless hatred, spear, bite, terror, bite then whatever else. Use spear as a agro, because its one of the biggest we have, not as a dps. and ALWAYS have VoT up, they keep our agro lower because we have VoT, with it, we are higher than pal, and other than wade/PA we are higher than wars too. My problem with parses are My wives pal is 105, semi raid geared, RoF, with a Xorbb 2h, sk is 105, CotF t1 raid equiped, and War is 100 with only a raid weap, no other raid equip. All have a mix of rk1-3 spells, so they are hard to parse together. I don't know any wars that I trust to be able to actually pull out a good parse, and the same with pallies, I can beat every one of them I know with my sub geared wives pally. I would have to get another raid weap with war + 2h which isnt gonna happen, and buy the TDS exp, which also isnt gonna happen . I would have to get the spear from EWK2 for wives pally, which may happen.... someday, she doesnt play much anymore, and when she does, she is leveling a new wiz.
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:48 AM   #14
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If you are having issues before you get your second hate spell off, use mindless hatred at the beginning of each fight. I keep agro off burn mercs by casting teror on inc, mindless hatred, spear, bite, terror, bite then whatever else. Use spear as a agro, because its one of the biggest we have, not as a dps. and ALWAYS have VoT up, they keep our agro lower because we have VoT, with it, we are higher than pal, and other than wade/PA we are higher than wars too.
I get what you are saying / doing, but I think we're speaking past each other. My point is just looking at aggro inducing spells of the three, ours is significantly lower and does nothing but aggro. Why are we required to have a buff on to equal or surpass other tanks? Particularly a buff we could as easily cast on them to widen that gap even further? If that is their reasoning, remove and refund the AA and up the spells innately - why require us to have a buff for our aggro when no other tank does? And I shouldn't have to pop mindless if a Paladin or Warrior doesn't have to do the equivalent. In other words, my point is not about whether or not we can hold aggro but rather the comparison to the other tanks. I am completely on board with you when it comes to parses. I posted a thread on the live forums and sure enough, here comes a couple of Paladins to run their typical interference playbook: 1. make claims that the numbers are not true, offering nothing to refute it 2. redirect to things that do not matter, such as whether lifetaps are linked or 'well, you have an AE tap and a cool epic!' 3. refuse to acknowledge stepping over class lines, ex. their 'tap' 4. set the ground work for claims that the classes aren't that different in the areas they vastly succeed at (self healing) and should not be that different in the areas your class is suppose to be good at (dps) 5. and of course throw in some insults for good measure to try to get the thread locked - if you can't reason it out to hold another class down, then make sure they don't get to bring up their issues! People like that really have no place in society.
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:25 AM   #15
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I guess the way I see it is: War: Mitigation + agro SK: DPS + agro Pal: Healing + agro right now all 3 can out agro any dps if using their tools. Pal have some lockouts that they have to contend with, stuns vs crush etc. They also don't get to use their stuns on a lot of content as it is stun immune. When not stun immune, then they can perma lock a mob if they know what they are doing, IE god mode. Pal also have to use their marr's agro reducer on dps classes otherwise DPS can out agro them. Many Pal were having issues when the exp first came out until they learned their new spell weaves and started using Marr's. They also get heal agro from their "taps" too, which is why many of them have hate overrides that reduce their inital agro from the spell. Pal agro is really hard to pin down, and prior to TDS/VoT retune could run circles around us without trying, and the same with dps classes. Pal for the first in a really long time have to actually work at agro, the same as we do. When my wife is in group and burning with her pally, I have to use VoT or she has to Marr's herself not to pull agro. When a war is on a raid mob and I forget to take VoT off during the burn phase, and war goes into autopilot because their insane agro, I can rip it off, so we can catch up to them if they are not careful, and in between their abilities we can catch them if we are not careful. War are 35% better than sk/pal at mitigation right out of the gate. and under discs still 25% better and for longer, and have without a doubt the highest agro out there. Pal have without a doubt the best healing and healing mods to keep themselves up. first spire, group AotI, AoTI, epic, they can run that more often and for longer than we can do all ours, added with their double to triple what we can heal for,and they have better mitigation with their always available 15% vie makes them way more versatile. We have......life taps........um ok, and a 30 min?? cool down with unholy that mods them, then first spire, and lastly visage + epic, and then regular epic. I agree our lifetaps need to be faster cast and recast taken down to 6 seconds, with dire at the 9-12 second mark. As for the AE lifetap, that's great an all if you don't have a bard/chanter mezzing. so on many raids you cannot use, and in some group situations you cannot use. Don'g get me wrong, with first spire or unholy our AE lifetap + regular lifetaps will keep us up just find in anything but raid situation, but its not sustainable as theirs is, and they can keep themselves up on raid adds way better than we can until they get heal support. As for DPS, we can sustain higher I think with our new terror mana tap, Pal runs out of mana faster than we do if they are doing what they should be. They can burst for just as much as we do, if they get lucky as some of theirs is proc based, not including undead, where they will pull out ahead, they also get more out of adps than we do. War is the one I want to see what they can really do with their new 2H prof + adps support.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:35 PM   #16
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Xan, I hope your crusade goes better than others, I gave up a long time ago posting on the EQ forums. you have a couple ass holes over there that make it their daily amusement to fuck with other people the do not share the same opinion as they do. Regardless of how right or wrong you could be, they will derail the thread with their opinions and shoot holes in your philosophies without providing any real evidence why theirs is "better" or why yours is hypothetically wrong without actually being right or wrong. The devs say to post in the forums and not by PM to them. but they don't ever come in and say, yeah we see the issue and were looking at it, regardless of the time frame, or "we don't see and issue and its where we want it," they let the little bitches over there take over and destroy the community. Even when you bring hard facts and parses they will just say the variables were wrong or shit like that, and competently derail the thread from the original purpose. They are not interested in having an actually intellectual discussion and bettering any single class, more or less the possibility that if we all worked together they might help all the classes. I have taken the very un sk stance of trying to help people over there and let my opinions stay off there, and will respond and help you in any way here if you want. If they want to come over here, we can has out the ideas in a civilized manner, or we can get nasty the same as them, but on our terms! They don't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that War and Pal each have a shinning light and SK doesn't have the same appeal, and that is really all were asking for. The wars don't want to face the fact that they were the baseline dps, but we were supposed to be 90% with melee, 110 with melee + spells, and the pal don't want to realize that we were supposed to keep up with them on self heals, where they shined on healing others as well as self + cures.
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:11 PM   #17
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Xan, I hope your crusade goes better than others, I gave up a long time ago posting on the EQ forums. you have a couple ass holes over there that make it their daily amusement to fuck with other people the do not share the same opinion as they do. Regardless of how right or wrong you could be, they will derail the thread with their opinions and shoot holes in your philosophies without providing any real evidence why theirs is "better" or why yours is hypothetically wrong without actually being right or wrong. The devs say to post in the forums and not by PM to them. but they don't ever come in and say, yeah we see the issue and were looking at it, regardless of the time frame, or "we don't see and issue and its where we want it," they let the little bitches over there take over and destroy the community. Even when you bring hard facts and parses they will just say the variables were wrong or shit like that, and competently derail the thread from the original purpose. They are not interested in having an actually intellectual discussion and bettering any single class, more or less the possibility that if we all worked together they might help all the classes. I have taken the very un sk stance of trying to help people over there and let my opinions stay off there, and will respond and help you in any way here if you want. If they want to come over here, we can has out the ideas in a civilized manner, or we can get nasty the same as them, but on our terms! They don't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that War and Pal each have a shinning light and SK doesn't have the same appeal, and that is really all were asking for. The wars don't want to face the fact that they were the baseline dps, but we were supposed to be 90% with melee, 110 with melee + spells, and the pal don't want to realize that we were supposed to keep up with them on self heals, where they shined on healing others as well as self + cures.
Man, I feel you, and back during HoT, I felt the same way. I think the only reason I am even trying now is after stepping away, I sort of have a 'second wind' to fight the good fight. I have no delusions of having any more success than anyone else, but rather just hoping that if you say it enough, maybe, just maybe, they'll stop and listen for once. You really hit the nail on the head there - people like Battleblade/axe and some of those Paladins have no interest whatsoever in the game as a whole - only their class being better than yours. It may piss some people off but I will be honest - in my own personal opinions of game design, I think Paladins should be the king of group tanking. Yup - I said it - that is what I feel they created their character to be. Now, I think we should be viable of course, but I think they should be better at it, just the same as I think Warriors should be better at boss / big mob tanking than knights. On raid adds, I think all should be equal. What should SKs bring? Measurably better dps than either of them. To me, that is balance in that it gives everyone an incentive to play one class or the other - pick your poison. One class is better than others at one thing and viable in other areas, and weak in one, but vice verse when it comes to other roles. For Warriors that is the best mitigation, baseline DPS, and weak in self sustainability. For Paladins, that is best in preventing or recovering damage (self sustainability), baseline in mitigation, and weak in DPS. It doesn't take a genius to see that SKs are the weakest in mitigation of the three, kinda lost in between on self sustainability, and should be best in DPS. Yet some Warriors think it is their right to be better tanks and DPS than knights and some Paladins actually have the audacity to think they should be better group tanks, healers, undead dps and near equal normal dps - basically no room for SKs to exists. I do not understand why someone who thinks like that even bothers playing a MMORPG; they should play single player console games instead. And I don't think it would be all that much work or hard to do. Put us on Warrior 2her, double, triple, and flurry skill caps & AAs (with knight AAs as well, that should balance out vs their stances & higher crit chances I think) or just and a 2 times damage modifier AA - melee done. For pets, up the skill damage modifier in the pet buff - done. Copy & paste, then rename Pureforge - done. Drop cast time on taps to 0.5 and cut recasts in half ( from 12 / 24 to 6 / 12 ) and call it good - done. Hell - I wouldn't even complain any more about Terrors. I can fire that off in a DB in a few minutes, pop out a toon and test, all while working on other things. This isn't about effort of verifying claims or anything - it is just a matter of whether or not they care enough to take the few minutes to look at it and fix it.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:14 PM   #18
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I agree with you and if you want to throw around ideas here before you post them there I will gladly assist as I can Its rather amusing that you have all tanks hate each other and try and hold each other down. Caster VS. Melee and then the hybrids sittin in back going WTF... the clr just saying leave me alone. The classes got so jacked up when they started giving everyone every thing. Used to be, SK for kiting, off tanking, pally for ramp tanking, extra healing and off tanking, and war for main tanking. Now no one wants SK on raids, other than those they know that are really well played. Melee have gotten hosed and if the rampage ability change goes in, even more, and the dev's dont do anything about it. I got my zerker to 101 last night. He has a CoTF raid weap and RoF raid armor, cept for arms, haven't gotten those yet. and is fun to play. He takes more concetraition, more concern than my casters, and pressing way more buttons, but on sustained my casters all in group gear with mostly rk1 spells, do better. Depending on the length of the fight, my casters or he can do better. Rangers are in a decent spot, but need a dps bump. Bards are ok, but really need a personal DPS bump, and bst are sittin really pretty atm. All the casters are rollin atm, its the best its been for years for them. The biggest thing is you have to write out a post over there in notepad or word. Go double check all your "fact" or hypothesis, find out any you cannot prove in hard writing, and find different ways of stating them. You also need to double check to see if anything might have been missed, because OMG there might be some magical once a day ability out there that makes someone gaga over it and invalidates everything else in the thread. The wars other than BB wont put up much of a fight as they are sittin really really pretty atm and dont want to fuck that up. The paladins are just fucking retarded and are sitting really pretty too, other than their AE hate, which they should be given that back, and don't want to rock the boat, as they are afraid of taking it in the ass again if we get an upgrade. SK look good because we do more with less and always have, we have some of the most skilled players, and shitty ones, than the rest, we just have more skilled on the whole because we have to be to get a spot or progress. The prob with the Paladin class is they have some of the worst player base in the game, I have only known a couple good ones, one of which just came back, and the rest are mediocre at best. They get by with the fact that they have splash and don't care to excel anywhere else, and never learn to dps on their class, or be a main healer, while dps'ing, or pull (hello lull), or anything else that they can do. Paladin's are one of the most versatile classes in EQ, which we are too, but they also have points where they and they alone can get the job done, something we do not share. Everyone can say that SK/Pal can MT raids, but seriously, you have to be geared/overgeared for the content to do so reliably, where a War does not, and thus they will always have their raid roll.
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:27 PM   #19
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As bad as some of the Warriors and Paladins are, they are nothing compared to the dumbasses who started trolling these very boards years ago, acting as if they speak for our own class and spew lies, hyperbole, stupidity and general bullshit in order to hold us down. That would be you, Tearsin. Since you started posting on this board, you have managed to display a complete lack of knowledge of not just game mechanics, but basic math, logic, and a basis in reality. I have always and continue to assume your main is something else, because that is the only reason to explain your continued trolling of SKs both here and elsewhere. Case in point, on the EQ boards..
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his is such an astonishingly BS excuse and i'm really getting sick of hearing it parroted by the bleating masses. on to the several other points of idiocy in this thread... aggro relative to other tanks means nothing... NOTHING. for years we had more mathematical hate generation than wars or pals, now we don't. utterly doesn't matter one mole's butt hair, because we still out-aggro everything else, the rest is just junk measuring. SK on-demand healing is a fair bit lower than pal on-demand healing, but our overall healing throughput is about equal - probably a little bit less in a sustained baseline, but we also burst higher so i think that kind of evens out. i'd like to see our on-demand evened out a little because it can be pretty inconsistent right now (it's sometimes awesome, and sometimes utterly pointless, it just depends on luck) but overall it's not too bad. also: pal epic is a joke compared to our in terms of healing power, and their AA based innate healing caps out at like 1200 (or less), whereas ours caps at 6600 damage and like 7k healing. SKs in raid gear are absolute freaking gods of content in this game that isn't current raiding, and if that means that we comfortably fill a couple of roles in raids but aren't the hands-down best at anything, i consider that a reasonable trade-off, especially when the entire notion of us being weak in raids is only due to idiotic groupthink being perpetuated by malcontents. (i honestly can't speak for group geared SKs as i'm afraid i haven't been one in about 9 years) SKs are unquestionably in one of the best spots they've been in for years, relative to the game content. belly-achers who cried for a decade then quit and let the rest of us get back to actually doing useful things and are now back and belly-aching again should really think about doing something more productive with their time.
First off, 98% of that post is complete and utter bullshit. Just completely made up and only posted to make it look like SKs are Ok when they are not - something you've done since you started posting on this site. The aggro point was made because it makes NO sense for an aggro only ability to be coded to generate less hate than a stun or a warrior spell. Logic is a difficult concept for you, we know - so just stay out of it. It took other SKs on this board to convince devs to 'fix it' via VoT. The fact that it can even be approached that way shows how much SKs have been neglected. SK overall healing throughput is nowhere close to Paladins. I know math is difficult for you, but trust those that finished grade school - it is not even close. Making an unmeasured baseless claim like that is childish. And we sure as hell don't burst higher - are you fucking retarded? Oh let me guess - LT - yeah, that has to be it. Or perhaps the 4% of the time where a dire crits and ex heals? Even then, it is nothing compared to Paladin's self only emergency heal. Again, retarded, baseless, bullshit from an incompetent player who claims to be an SK. Nice to point out the AA procs but leave off modifiers, buffs, defensive buffs, etc. Trolling points for you! The 'SKs are gods' crap started when we could swarm light blue mobs - not good on meaningful shit, but light blues - and now we don't even do that. It was never true and sure as hell is not today. Take the same gear, put it on a Paladin or a Warrior and watch them out tank, out heal, and out dps you, respectively. No one gives a shit that you can heal yourself on a light blue mob with VoD and epic up. SKs have no raid role and versatility certainly ain't it. Just because a raid leader puts you on a raid doesn't mean you were worth the spot - it just means he appreciated it when you sucked him off all those years ago like you told us about. The only idiots around here are you - always have been, and evidently continue to be. I've played this damned game a long ass time, and this is hands down one of the worse situations SKs have been in save close to the very start. DPS has dropped significantly, self healing has dropped significantly, and hell - even Terrors are CODED to do less aggro than fucking stuns. You have to be a compulsive liar to claim what you did, because no one is that stupid to believe it nor that good of a troll to say it with a straight face. After all these years, I would have thought you would have managed to stop being such a fuckup - guess I got that one wrong.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:40 AM   #20
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Xan, I think you need to take a step back, breath a little and really understand that, it is mostly opinions by tearsin. Just refute his opinions with data if you feel differently, and also accept the fact that you too may be wrong. I have been wrong on many occasions and I like to learn from those mistakes. Agro, I agree with teasin is a non point really with VoT, yeah its annoying to have to micro manage a buff, but, we are in a good place because of it. Pallies will still cry because they don't want to use their tools and they have plenty of them to make agro a non issue for them too. Where he is wrong is wrong is the "for years" part. We did against War's but never against palladins. they have done a lot in the last 2 exp to help war and sk, but Pal are now having to actually work for their agro, and that pisses them off. For healing, we are =/= with pally on self healing when all said in done. Theirs is more reliable, ours can double crit for higher, and our self procs (we have 2 they have 1) are much better. After a night of tanking on each I can tell you that the self healing parses are very close. Theirs outshines when it comes to healing groups, cures, and "on demand" healing. For us we click epic, and use dire in the hopes it doesn't get interrupted and sometimes pray for a crit heal or dmg, and/or a double crit. Where a pally can click epic+ aoti and use a burst have a guaranteed 100k heal, and then every heal after that is also big until they both wear off, or they can stagger their many abilities to have 20%+ healing at almost all times, where ours is limited to epic + melee dmg inc, or unholy or first spire, and unholy has a really long recast time and most use it for burns because it locks out our defensive discs. we also have spite of ronak and our bp clicks to help fill in the gaps. The fact that he thinks we are gods is due to the fact that he is over geared for the content, if he had a full group geared, group spelled, group weap char, he would find tanking a bit different, it really is eye opening, I have a group geared sk just for that reason, to keep perspective. As to the raid role, yeah we don't have one, and no one can give a good reason otherwise. Now with that in mind, I don't know of any guilds that kick players because of this, but on the other hand, you will not see any of the high end guilds recruiting SK either, so 6 and 1/2 dozen.
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