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Old 02-26-2015, 11:50 AM   #21
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Xan, I think you need to take a step back, breath a little and really understand that, it is mostly opinions by tearsin. Just refute his opinions with data if you feel differently, and also accept the fact that you too may be wrong. I have been wrong on many occasions and I like to learn from those mistakes. Agro, I agree with teasin is a non point really with VoT, yeah its annoying to have to micro manage a buff, but, we are in a good place because of it. Pallies will still cry because they don't want to use their tools and they have plenty of them to make agro a non issue for them too. Where he is wrong is wrong is the "for years" part. We did against War's but never against palladins. they have done a lot in the last 2 exp to help war and sk, but Pal are now having to actually work for their agro, and that pisses them off. For healing, we are =/= with pally on self healing when all said in done. Theirs is more reliable, ours can double crit for higher, and our self procs (we have 2 they have 1) are much better. After a night of tanking on each I can tell you that the self healing parses are very close. Theirs outshines when it comes to healing groups, cures, and "on demand" healing. For us we click epic, and use dire in the hopes it doesn't get interrupted and sometimes pray for a crit heal or dmg, and/or a double crit. Where a pally can click epic+ aoti and use a burst have a guaranteed 100k heal, and then every heal after that is also big until they both wear off, or they can stagger their many abilities to have 20%+ healing at almost all times, where ours is limited to epic + melee dmg inc, or unholy or first spire, and unholy has a really long recast time and most use it for burns because it locks out our defensive discs. we also have spite of ronak and our bp clicks to help fill in the gaps. The fact that he thinks we are gods is due to the fact that he is over geared for the content, if he had a full group geared, group spelled, group weap char, he would find tanking a bit different, it really is eye opening, I have a group geared sk just for that reason, to keep perspective. As to the raid role, yeah we don't have one, and no one can give a good reason otherwise. Now with that in mind, I don't know of any guilds that kick players because of this, but on the other hand, you will not see any of the high end guilds recruiting SK either, so 6 and 1/2 dozen.
It pisses me off because he tries to be condescending and insulting when his head is up his ass and he's always been that way. It's one thing to disagree - that is fine - it is another to be baseless and use hyperbole and then yet a completely different level to make ridiculously untrue claims that do nothing but show everyone you're an idiot and liar AND top that off by throwing out insults. Basically, he's always been a piece of shit and still is. Like I stated on the live boards, the point of the aggro complaint was the illustration of how SKs have been approached. The shear fact that the devs looked at an aggro only spell and gave it less aggro than a stun and SKs had to get this corrected via a buff is an unbelievable failure on their part in the way they have treated SKs. It should have never gotten to that point and the fact it did is evidence of the neglect the class received. We don't double crit for more than Paladins either. For one, a double crit happens ~4% of the time. Secondly, our best tap, Dire, does 35456 on a double at rank 1. Burst on an exceptional heal - which happens 49% of the time - hits for 38399 and Grief is a lot more than that if needed. Now add in Epic, AoTI, and BV. That's not even remotely close. When it comes to procs and buffs, don't forget their defensive proc, who's base heal is over 2k and has an HoT to it as well. Now add in RS with an over 5k HoT. And of course, don't forget Mark. That's why I stated it is so dishonest of him/her/it to compared TotC and Shroud to just Paladin's AA innate proc - there's much more to it than that. I don't know why epic, 1st, unholy, etc keep coming up - the lowest reuse timer there is 5 minutes on a 1 minute effect. Paladins have those kind of tools too - no need to dig them all up. Ex. Spite? How about Blunted Blade. Most of that is besides the point and at least half of them know it. The point was as with the aggro example - to illustrate that what people 'think' SKs are good at has been screwed up pretty hard. Paladins getting a better 'tap' - how is that anything other than a big 'fuck you' to SKs? Now I personally think self healing should be near equal on the two classes because one is self only and the other is targetable - HUGE difference there. But even if that was the case, there is still no raid role. Which is where we started and why DPS was brought up. SKs having to use a full spell line up and pet to equal a Warrior is fucked up. And given the devs have made it a point that SKs won't ever make others better, SKs therefore have to be pretty damned good at what they bring to justify the slot, which 'enough' DPS over Warriors and Paladins could possibly do that - plus it has been made clear that is really our only option per the devs.
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Old 02-26-2015, 12:27 PM   #22
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Ill try and help as I can, don't take these as attacks, they are only meant to help inform and refine your arguments for you. Agro - They gave us the VoT buff to help us have a raid buff per se, and thus gave us lower terror values because of this. Right or wrong, that's what it was and its a dev decision and one we kinda asked for. so its a mute point to try and fight, they aren't gonna change it any time soon self healing - You are not adding in all the AA/focus effects that can effect stuff, I can double crit with the new rk1 dire for over 120k, a single crit can be in the 40's-50's depending on what is effecting me and more if I'm running spire or unholy. If I am loaded with bard etc, I can get a bond crit heal up to the 70k's, mind you that has only happened one time in an hour of parsing, + all stuff loaded that can effect dots, but it did happen, though in real world its highly improbably. I have seen during a parse a twin tap with doubles that healed me for over 200k, but again that was a 1 in a mil occurrence. Now on to their self healing, they can hit a hell of a lot more than 38k with an exceptional burst, then they can add double cast etc on top of that then hit their heal mods, so they can do >100k heals on demand. click/secondary abilities - they keep coming up because they are so close, people want to omit them, but someone else will bring up, oh hey what about XYZ, but the problem is, we both have those abilities. so you have to bring them up and address them otherwise, someone else will to try and make you look bad to the ignorant masses. I see their defensive proc the same as our skin line, where I like ours better anyway. As for the war part, I don't know many wars that can keep up with me on dps, I'm sure they might be able to, but I haven't found any that could and I don't have a decent 2h on mine to try, as I don't feel its right to compare a cotf group 2h to a cotf raid 2h. Also trying to compare a sk full spell lineup vs a war, is not really a good comparison as they don't have "spells". We have a couple discs we click to up our dps regularly, bites + blades + bash are the quick ones I can think of, where they have 5+ that they click, knee strike, gut punch, command, shield strike(or something like that) etc, so they have to do a bit too, and our offensive stuff no longer locks out our defensive stuff, just cant run unholy at the same time as a defensive disc, where they cannot run some of theirs or they will lock out some of their defensive stuff, mind you most of that has been resolved, so I think its only 1 now. We have to look at it from the point of all 3 classes, do we want all 3 to do around the same dps while tanking, I do, and I think it is close atm. Its when we go into dps mode that I think there should be a real difference, and currently there really isn't, we are all still close, and nowhere near what a dps class can do.
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:55 PM   #23
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Ill try and help as I can, don't take these as attacks, they are only meant to help inform and refine your arguments for you. Agro - They gave us the VoT buff to help us have a raid buff per se, and thus gave us lower terror values because of this. Right or wrong, that's what it was and its a dev decision and one we kinda asked for. so its a mute point to try and fight, they aren't gonna change it any time soon self healing - You are not adding in all the AA/focus effects that can effect stuff, I can double crit with the new rk1 dire for over 120k, a single crit can be in the 40's-50's depending on what is effecting me and more if I'm running spire or unholy. If I am loaded with bard etc, I can get a bond crit heal up to the 70k's, mind you that has only happened one time in an hour of parsing, + all stuff loaded that can effect dots, but it did happen, though in real world its highly improbably. I have seen during a parse a twin tap with doubles that healed me for over 200k, but again that was a 1 in a mil occurrence. Now on to their self healing, they can hit a hell of a lot more than 38k with an exceptional burst, then they can add double cast etc on top of that then hit their heal mods, so they can do >100k heals on demand. click/secondary abilities - they keep coming up because they are so close, people want to omit them, but someone else will bring up, oh hey what about XYZ, but the problem is, we both have those abilities. so you have to bring them up and address them otherwise, someone else will to try and make you look bad to the ignorant masses. I see their defensive proc the same as our skin line, where I like ours better anyway. As for the war part, I don't know many wars that can keep up with me on dps, I'm sure they might be able to, but I haven't found any that could and I don't have a decent 2h on mine to try, as I don't feel its right to compare a cotf group 2h to a cotf raid 2h. Also trying to compare a sk full spell lineup vs a war, is not really a good comparison as they don't have "spells". We have a couple discs we click to up our dps regularly, bites + blades + bash are the quick ones I can think of, where they have 5+ that they click, knee strike, gut punch, command, shield strike(or something like that) etc, so they have to do a bit too, and our offensive stuff no longer locks out our defensive stuff, just cant run unholy at the same time as a defensive disc, where they cannot run some of theirs or they will lock out some of their defensive stuff, mind you most of that has been resolved, so I think its only 1 now. We have to look at it from the point of all 3 classes, do we want all 3 to do around the same dps while tanking, I do, and I think it is close atm. Its when we go into dps mode that I think there should be a real difference, and currently there really isn't, we are all still close, and nowhere near what a dps class can do.
I don't view discussions as attacks man - I view "we are gods this is stupid" as attacks. I understand you are trying to explain the aggro value, but I think we all know it didn't play out that way. But again, that is all a moot point - was just an illustration. Nope, didn't add in foci or mods, but didn't do it for either class, which both can get, so again, a wash in comparisons. Sure - add in foci, spell damage, crit bonus, spire, unholy / VoDeath, bard and a rare 4% of a double crit and wow omg look at that! And there are conditions, as you mentioned, where Paladins have those moments too. Classes aren't balanced or compared by when one wins the lottery vs the other's everyday life. I don't think our skin is good as their def proc, esp since there's is modded and focused. I don't believe our full spell line up should be used to compare to Warriors dps either and only brought it up to prevent some of what you are mentioning, ie someone else will, and to show that even with all those spells, we still only equal them, which is just wrong. I've ran tons of parses in TDS content fighting mobs 1:1 taking 90-120 secs a fight and my dps is as steady as can be around 13k non-disc type stuff. That's with a tank and some dps spells loaded, obviously. And on the other hand, I have many parses of Warriors at ~16k just melee'ing dual wield and I know we're around the same gear level. I have 0 doubts in my parses on like content, sustainable dps. Discing / AAing / etc is again something that both classes have and honestly, they have more of and better. Onslaught for example can crit like an old HT. Shield topple and all their yellow mana spells give them a variety of skill mob damage, etc. I don't have a Warrior burn parse and I wish I did. The best I can do are Warriors themselves from 2 years ago saying they hit 60k on forums, which is what you and I have on a parsing dummy today. I appreciate your input and dialog - its a big help and good to see folks that talk about shit instead of just rant one way or the other.
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Old 02-26-2015, 02:15 PM   #24
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I have been burned by not factoring in all the the focii etc because it does make a huge difference and, when you do the math, they are different. One glaring one is we have 2 ways to crit, the lifetap dmg, or the heal portion, which can actually lead to more crits than for a pal (if i remember the % correctly, its been a while). But they can twinheal on demand, the real difference between them and us is the chance base, ours is chance and thus we see streaks where we die from no self healing procs etc, where theirs is controlled where they die from laziness not chance. You really have to include everything in a realistic point of view over time to get the real value. This comes in healing and in dps. If you don't use your discs of course your dps wont be as good, that like saving everything for the named fight and doing another 60 minutes in between named without discs. I get to higher sustained because I don't save shit like that, and use it as it comes up, you will notice wars that parse higher do the same, even when tanking. Also you have to note when doing parses for the dev team, you have to do it with *all* available adps, which in my mind isnt realistic at all, but they say since its an option you have to include it because in some weird way it may happen. Thus you have to make the group something like: bard, shm, rng, bst, zerker, parsee. you also have to have all these that know wtf they are doing, which can be equally as hard to find and how to burn together to max for you. The other thing to keep in mind is there is theoretical and actual, and your actual will only ever be around 80% of the theoretical because there are to many variables in EQ. I just bought a new house so in the process of moving, but if I can get some time ill see what I can do with the trade skill lvl 100 weap and get my bard friend and ranger friend to come help and see what I can come up with, to give us a reference, but the main issue will be, he has 0 aa into offensive stuff other than auto grant so it will be way way low. as to preservation vs skin: Preservation of the Iceclad Effect 1: Increase HP when cast by 2039 8: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1625 per tick vs skin @ 5091 absorbed per hit for 3 hits and the buff lasts 2x as long theirs has the benefit of throwing a hot on them, where ours strait absorbs, I like ours, its more up front and in effect does more in my opinion, because it can take 15k off a round if 3+ hits, where theirs heals after the fact and then over time, which is technically more, but ours helps us from getting rounded where theirs wouldn't. and they have to cast it more often. I honestly cant remember right now what theirs is after focus effects but it is not more than 5k per tick, unless its a crit tick, and i'm not sure if it can be critted. also, theirs was not updated for TDS where ours was.
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:17 PM   #25
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Xan bottom line is if you try to apply math and logic to our current state of balance, you will retire again soon. Basically we have 2 kinds of SK's left. One that thinks SK's are some sort of god badass class because they can beat up the group game in raid gear. The other knows we are dominated by the other 2 tank classes, realizes nothings going to change, but keeps playing because we can beat up the group game in raid gear. On EQLive, and even here, you are going to get arguments like you've already seen that you can not even logically respond to as they are so far from left field. Stuff like "but you have voice at 72% mod", ignoring the fact that warriors and paladins can still generate amble aggro without having to waste a buff slot, and the fact it was a buff originally given to us to give warriors more aggro. Stuff like "your epic is awesome", despite the fact the pally epic generates more healing. Stuff like, "you need to loose melee dps because you do spell dps and you guys are the dps tank". This despite the fact that when everything nets out with dps warriors beat us, and Pallys are close enough that the difference is irrelevant when dps classes double and triple us up. Stuff like, "you get fd", when everyone gets some sort of fade now. And on, and on , and on. Bottom line is Aristo and Elidroth both think they have a handle on tank balance and are happy with us being a distant third. As long as those guys still hold all the decision cards, the SK class is going to remain a t2 tank.
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Old 02-27-2015, 03:16 AM   #26
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The way I see it regarding the SK class, if it hasn't happened by now at this late stage of the game, then it's never happening. So if you're not happy with the class, then main change. That is honestly what I would have ended up doing if I continued playing.
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Old 02-27-2015, 05:50 AM   #27
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And if you're cool with just being a great group tank and soloer/moloer but know you're limited in the raid game, then that's fine. But you must understand that SK's will most likely never be that desirable in a raid setting. We have been asking for YEARS for raid tools that make us desirable. As I said in my above reply, if it hasn't happened by now, its never happening. ......I remember having these conversations back during the GoD expansion We have been discussing our raid desirability for over a decade. The term "Shadowkite" didn't start almost a decade ago for nothing I fully 100% believe that EQ1 has a few classes that devs over the years are stumped on and they just don't know what to do with them and never will (unfortunately, SKs are one of those classes)
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Old 02-27-2015, 10:35 AM   #28
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Beasts were like that until they got fury, IT'S POSSIBLE!
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Old 02-27-2015, 11:57 AM   #29
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Don't be a doom and gloom'er. Right now mages are in a great spot but from Velious until Secrets of Faydwer they were coh bots and rod whores. The primary way this was changed was our CRT for many years called the dev's out. Right before SoF a new CRT stepped up and did the following: He remained calm and collected and continually presented information. He present data AND suggestions for a fix. His exact suggestions weren't implemented but all the changes were brought about through his suggestions. He listened to the entire community, not just those that gave him a reach around. A couple of the changes he didn't want to present but did anyway which eventually helped the class as a whole. Offer trade-offs such as "the sk community will accept ABC but you need to give us XYZ." If you get combative (with the dev's or those that the dev's favor) you've lost automatically. Become Marry Poppins when giving information and suggestions.
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Old 02-27-2015, 12:36 PM   #30
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Who knew, we are only a spit spot away from a raid worthy class.
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