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Old 04-26-2017, 02:41 PM   #11
shiftie
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yes, and I think he put in the 1.5 XXX, 3.0 XXX as to the seconds, when it should be 1.8 for gcd. he is putting AA in there between casts.

That is the way i read and understood it. If i am wrong he can correct me.
Except he is listing stupid things like casting fod and divine stun back to back which unless they made a change im not aware of they are in the same timer oh and divine stun has a knock back.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:42 PM   #12
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Xan, why did you leave a lot of hate out of this rotation? no lifetaps, dots (which will be huge when we get revamp, if ever) Impose (I use it for the AC more than the hate)

ToN, HA, 1.5 Dicho, Bite, 3.0 ToP, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 Spear, 9.0 ToP, 12.0 ToN, 15.0 ToP, 18.0 ToN, 21.0 ToP, 24.0 ToN, 27.0 ToP, 30 ToN

it should have a lot more casts in there

ToN, HA, 1.5 spear, Bite, VoD, 3.0 ToP, 4.5 DireD, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 Dicho, 9.0 ToP, 10.5 ToL, 12.0 ToN, 13.5 DD, 15.0 ToP, 16.5 IfP, 18.0 ToN , 19.5 bond , 21.0 ToP, 22.5 ToL, 24.0 ToN ,25.5 Spear , 27.0 ToP, 28.5 DireD , 30 ToN

I noticed you did this on the pally one to, just not as much. Dont know if it was intentional. You are just leaving a lot of agro on the table, but I do think it should be pushed out to 1.8 inbetween, which reduces the agro and casts a decent bit.

Last edited by sojero; 04-26-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:46 PM   #13
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Except he is listing stupid things like casting fod and divine stun back to back which unless they made a change im not aware of they are in the same timer oh and divine stun has a knock back.
I thought that too, but it looks like according to spell data they are both on time 0 now, i think that was done with the recent changes to timers for many skills/abilities. I am not at the comp to test, so cannot 100% verify.

And yes I agree about the DS, no one uses it cause of the knock back.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:13 PM   #14
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Except he is listing stupid things like casting fod and divine stun back to back which unless they made a change im not aware of they are in the same timer oh and divine stun has a knock back.
Figured you'd have trouble following it... See sojero's response - they show on timer zero. If that is incorrect, please say so. As for stupid things, that seems to be par for the course for the arguments you and yours bring up on forums, so if things that are never used for SKs will be listed, thus they will be for Paladins too.

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Xan, why did you leave a lot of hate out of this rotation? no lifetaps, dots (which will be huge when we get revamp, if ever) Impose (I use it for the AC more than the hate)

ToN, HA, 1.5 Dicho, Bite, 3.0 ToP, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 Spear, 9.0 ToP, 12.0 ToN, 15.0 ToP, 18.0 ToN, 21.0 ToP, 24.0 ToN, 27.0 ToP, 30 ToN

it should have a lot more casts in there

ToN, HA, 1.5 spear, Bite, VoD, 3.0 ToP, 4.5 DireD, 6.0 ToN, 7.5 Dicho, 9.0 ToP, 10.5 ToL, 12.0 ToN, 13.5 DD, 15.0 ToP, 16.5 IfP, 18.0 ToN , 19.5 bond , 21.0 ToP, 22.5 ToL, 24.0 ToN ,25.5 Spear , 27.0 ToP, 28.5 DireD , 30 ToN

I noticed you did this on the pally one to, just not as much. Dont know if it was intentional. You are just leaving a lot of agro on the table, but I do think it should be pushed out to 1.8 inbetween, which reduces the agro and casts a decent bit.
I was under the impression global cool down was bumped to 1.5 (actually quite a while back), no?

First off you have Veil listed, which is once every 5 minutes, hence why it is left out just like Lodestar; doesn't make a whole lot of sense to include an ability with that kind of reuse in a comparison of what one can expect to use repeatedly.

Secondly, you have DD in there, which is AE, but compared it to my single target only cast line.

Thirdly, I didn't include taps for the same reasons I didn't include heals: they are used to heal. Yes, I added dicho but only because of the ridiculous call out of it on the DBG boards (no offense) but did it for both classes.

We can put in DoTs / dps but would have to do so both ways and right now, like dicho, I don't know anyone who's approach is 'need to load more DoTs!' when building aggro (though if we ever see DoT revamps, that could change). I could have added their DDs but I was making a point that they don't even need them whereas Spear is actually used for aggro as well as dps by many SKs.

Good catch on spear - should have put it in earlier.

So with spear adjusted, that's another 11177 aggro. The taps you added is only another 30244 base. Base on bond, full duration (which you won't get & why didn't you choose blood?) is 9432. All that without VoT, it is still under the Paladin example. Only if you pretty much hit stride on crit rates ( 66634 & 21526 respectively ) do you now surpass. And yet, no heals or dps for Pallys have been accounted for.

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Old 04-26-2017, 04:46 PM   #15
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I was under the impression global cool down was bumped to 1.5 (actually quite a while back), no?
I have not heard this, and dont see it in game. still 1.8 afaik

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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
First off you have Veil listed, which is once every 5 minutes, hence why it is left out just like Lodestar; doesn't make a whole lot of sense to include an ability with that kind of reuse in a comparison of what one can expect to use repeatedly.
I didn't realize you didn't put in 5 min reuse abilities, you can take that out.

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Secondly, you have DD in there, which is AE, but compared it to my single target only cast line.
its fast reuse and I use it a lot on single targets because its the only damage thing i have up, and instead of doing nothing I cast it. Why wouldn't you? If you dont like that, put something else in its place. The main point was you leave a ton of agro off due to not putting our dps stuff in there. Thats like a melee only clicking burn stuff and not their spam key and saying "oh thats my max dps."

I was also just doing that as a quick example that you were leaving a ton of agro on the table, for both classes. Also if I had cared, I would have fixed it to the 1.8 GCD. Also, if not mistaken, cast time is taken out of the GCD, that is why if you can a 3 sec cast time spell you can chain it, even with the GCD, so you dont add that in.

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Thirdly, I didn't include taps for the same reasons I didn't include heals: they are used to heal. Yes, I added dicho but only because of the ridiculous call out of it on the DBG boards (no offense) but did it for both classes.
You should include them as they contribute to agro as well during that time, and can make a difference over the 30 seconds, for both classes (DD for pally). I mean your leaving out ~15-20% agro by not including them.

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We can put in DoTs / dps but would have to do so both ways and right now, like dicho, I don't know anyone who's approach is 'need to load more DoTs!' when building aggro (though if we ever see DoT revamps, that could change). I could have added their DDs but I was making a point that they don't even need them whereas Spear is actually used for aggro as well as dps by many SKs.
as I said it might be different when we get revamps. I put bond in there because thats the only dot i usually have up, and should probably drop it, but in fast killing groups you can get a shit ton of healing from it cause of the recourses on you even after the mob is dead, and haven't parsed in a while, but they used to stack, so you would get a ton of healing if you had it from a couple diff mobs. But for pure agro, yes a diff dot would be better. I was being more realistic.

Also as to dots, when in group game and only pulling 1-4 yeah you load up 5 dots per, they are some hella agro, I wouldn't underestimate that agro. If you dont have the need of a healer, you can drop your taps for dots, and after initial burst hate and mindless, move to the others and load dots, you can just dps after the first one even in a faster paced group. 30-40 sec per mob, the 20 sec mob groups though you cannot.


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Only if you pretty much hit stride on crit rates ( 66634 & 21526 respectively ) do you now surpass. And yet, no heals or dps for Pallys have been accounted for.
What do crits have to do with anything? they dont up agro at all.

Last edited by sojero; 04-26-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:02 PM   #16
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Oh yes I have such a hard time comprehending your elite numerical bullshit for aggro.

Here some math you might be able to appreciate at the pace you listed because we are throwing actual play styles out the window for mass spamming hate that's 22k mana every 30 sec at the least.a++ would do again
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:10 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sojero View Post
I have not heard this, and dont see it in game. still 1.8 afaik
Ok - will have to check it out then.

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its fast reuse and I use it a lot on single targets because its the only damage thing i have up, and instead of doing nothing I cast it. Why wouldn't you? If you dont like that, put something else in its place. The main point was you leave a ton of agro off due to not putting our dps stuff in there. Thats like a melee only clicking burn stuff and not their spam key and saying "oh thats my max dps."
I put a separate line in there for single target with AE.

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You should include them as they contribute to agro as well during that time, and can make a difference over the 30 seconds, for both classes (DD for pally). I mean your leaving out ~15-20% agro by not including them.
Actually 13% for the 4 casts you listed. Adding the 30244 for us still shows us behind; no need to list Paladin's because the point is already made.

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Also as to dots, when in group game and only pulling 1-4 yeah you load up 5 dots per, they are some hella agro, I wouldn't underestimate that agro. If you dont have the need of a healer, you can drop your taps for dots, and after initial burst hate and mindless, move to the others and load dots, you can just dps after the first one even in a faster paced group. 30-40 sec per mob, the 20 sec mob groups though you cannot.
I load them up when I'm boxing and whatnot but in 30 sec or less fights where we're trying to show maximum aggro, not only wouldn't you but you can't - there's just better aggro spells and not enough time.

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What do crits have to do with anything? they dont up agro at all.
Brainfart on my part - I was stuck on the DoT aggro (where crits do matter) and put in taps as well.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:22 PM   #18
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Ok - will have to check it out then.

I put a separate line in there for single target with AE.

Actually 13% for the 4 casts you listed. Adding the 30244 for us still shows us behind; no need to list Paladin's because the point is already made.
I understand you put a separate line for ae, but I am saying many use it for single as well, its not like our AA ae's that dont also include damage so were not gonna use them if we dont need them. It is also up every 6 seconds so it fill in gaps when the rest of our stuff is down.

as to the not including paladin, you cannot ommit any of their agro if you are trying to make a point, it just makes you look bad, like your hiding stuff or don't understand. I also understand it would put them further ahead, but you still need to include it for an equal comparison.

Also as shiftie states, they could not maintain that as it would oom them withing a couple fights, they don't have the recovery tools that we do, and that is probably a big factor as to why they are complaining. I hated that fact when i was playing around with my wives pally, going oom means the rest of the group cannot go all out either, and it blows.

Last edited by sojero; 04-26-2017 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:28 PM   #19
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Ok - will have to check it out then.
I load them up when I'm boxing and whatnot but in 30 sec or less fights where we're trying to show maximum aggro, not only wouldn't you but you can't - there's just better aggro spells and not enough time.

Brainfart on my part - I was stuck on the DoT aggro (where crits do matter) and put in taps as well.
If you read what I was saying i was not meaning on a quick 30 second fight, i meant of a big pull where you can lock agro on the first one and use AE agro + dots so you and the group max dps. Sorry probably shouldnt have interjected that int this conversation.

No worries about the brain fart, I do it all the time when posting from work and being quick about it.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:46 PM   #20
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Divine Stun and FOD absolutely lock each other out.
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