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Old 04-26-2017, 09:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
Ok - will have to check it out then.

I put a separate line in there for single target with AE.

Actually 13% for the 4 casts you listed. Adding the 30244 for us still shows us behind; no need to list Paladin's because the point is already made.

I load them up when I'm boxing and whatnot but in 30 sec or less fights where we're trying to show maximum aggro, not only wouldn't you but you can't - there's just better aggro spells and not enough time.

Brainfart on my part - I was stuck on the DoT aggro (where crits do matter) and put in taps as well.
Dot crits don't matter it's base damage per tick hate.

Go check err out, I did a few tests when they first talked about revamping dots.

Also I don't think any paladin or sk is going to go with either of the spell orders on page 1 in a realistic situation.

And anyone with any sense knows 90% of the problem is the harmonious spells.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:11 PM   #22
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yeah logged in wives pally to check, both on timer 2.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by sojero View Post
I understand you put a separate line for ae, but I am saying many use it for single as well, its not like our AA ae's that dont also include damage so were not gonna use them if we dont need them. It is also up every 6 seconds so it fill in gaps when the rest of our stuff is down.
I have 3 lines list - single, single w/ AE, and just AE.

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Originally Posted by sojero View Post
as to the not including paladin, you cannot ommit any of their agro if you are trying to make a point, it just makes you look bad, like your hiding stuff or don't understand. I also understand it would put them further ahead, but you still need to include it for an equal comparison.
When the piont is 'they are ahead', what does it matter? There's nothing to hide or understand about that... if you'd like to toss that in, be my guest! But it certainly is pointless.

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Originally Posted by sojero View Post
Also as shiftie states, they could not maintain that as it would oom them withing a couple fights, they don't have the recovery tools that we do, and that is probably a big factor as to why they are complaining. I hated that fact when i was playing around with my wives pally, going oom means the rest of the group cannot go all out either, and it blows.
That's a recovery / efficency problem though. Giving them more aggro on their aggro spells may mean they can use less spells but it would also mean them being able to out aggro us by an even wider margin.

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Divine Stun and FOD absolutely lock each other out.
Good to know - thanks. Will adjust when I have time.

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Originally Posted by Ravengloome View Post
Dot crits don't matter it's base damage per tick hate.
Go check err out, I did a few tests when they first talked about revamping dots.
Also I don't think any paladin or sk is going to go with either of the spell orders on page 1 in a realistic situation.
And anyone with any sense knows 90% of the problem is the harmonious spells.
I'll have to test the DoT thing out cus I know that's one that's been talked about a lot.

As for the order... no shit. The differences between harmonious are an issue, but some assholes are trying to spin that into a "our aggro sucks across the board and we need more", which is complete bullshit, ie. the entire point of this.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:41 AM   #24
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Here is what I think is a more realistic comparison.

75% agro mod for bold attacks and mask

Only spells/skills that will be up under 30 seconds, so every mob.
Using the spell set I used to use on pally and the one I use now on sk. Usually if not on a raid I drop the second terror for something else and put Dire deflection in there but the second terror is more agro.

SK
Terror of Poira
10260*1.75=17955

Terror of Narus
12160*1.75=21280

Spear of Vizat
10138*1.75=17741

Dire Declaration
8864*1.75=15512

Touch of Lutzen
4852*1.75=8491

total hate in first 30 seconds = 80979

Pally
Crush of the Darkened Sea
15848*1.75=27734

Ardent Force
7169*1.75=12545

Force of Ardency
4132*1.75=7231

Crush of Povar
12332*1.75=21581

Valiant Defense
9176*1.75=16058 (not adding in the broken hate mod or it would be way more)

Force of disruption
15000*1.75=26250

total hate in first 30 seconds = 111399

These numbers do change when you add in up to 1 min reuse abilities, but I wanted to represent what is used on every mob. If pallies would use a different agro set, please by all means speak up. I am also not at my play computer, and went by timers and memory. IF something conflicts please speak up.

I cannot remember the recast of force of disruption but I believe it is under 30, again not at my play computer. Please tell me if it is different or if anyone knows what it is.

Last edited by sojero; 04-27-2017 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sojero View Post
Here is what I think is a more realistic comparison.

75% agro mod for bold attacks and mask

Only spells/skills that will be up under 30 seconds, so every mob.
Using the spell set I used to use on pally and the one I use now on sk. Usually if not on a raid I drop the second terror for something else and put Dire deflection in there but the second terror is more agro.

SK
Terror of Poira
10260*1.75=17955

Terror of Narus
12160*1.75=21280

Spear of Vizat
10138*1.75=17741

Dire Declaration
8864*1.75=15512

Touch of Lutzen
4852*1.75=8491

total hate in first 30 seconds = 80979

Pally
Crush of the Darkened Sea
15848*1.75=27734

Ardent Force
7169*1.75=12545

Force of Ardency
4132*1.75=7231

Crush of Povar
12332*1.75=21581

Valiant Defense
9176*1.75=16058 (not adding in the broken hate mod or it would be way more)

Force of disruption
15000*1.75=26250

total hate in first 30 seconds = 111399

These numbers do change when you add in up to 1 min reuse abilities, but I wanted to represent what is used on every mob. If pallies would use a different agro set, please by all means speak up. I am also not at my play computer, and went by timers and memory. IF something conflicts please speak up.

I cannot remember the recast of force of disruption but I believe it is under 30, again not at my play computer. Please tell me if it is different or if anyone knows what it is.
If we are talking how actual paladins play?

Any paladin that uses Force of Ardency in group content is fucking bad.

BV is same hate near on half the recast.
99% of the time we aren't going to use Ardent force, especially if mobs can be stunned. It's replaced with Consecration and Laudation.

Also if we are comparing aggro generation VOT has to be factored, because you have it when out grouping and we do not.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:04 AM   #26
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If we are talking how actual paladins play?

Any paladin that uses Force of Ardency in group content is fucking bad.

BV is same hate near on half the recast.
99% of the time we aren't going to use Ardent force, especially if mobs can be stunned. It's replaced with Consecration and Laudation.

Also if we are comparing aggro generation VOT has to be factored, because you have it when out grouping and we do not.
I didnt remember using force of ardency but couldnt remember why, but also knew that with the new mana costs I wasnt sure if people had changed it up. Good to know they will be around the same agro gen so no big deal there. Also is force of ardency the one with knockback, I was thinking that was the lesson line, but again cannot remember.

I didnt include VoT because Pallies also have Marrs, but that is hard to control, so I wanted to keep it as close to apples to apples as we could.

When I play with the wives pally I usually do crush fod consecration crush laudation brilliant and spam fod as it repops, but I know I run out of mana within 10 mins doing that. I also use valiant for when I need heals, but I am usually boxing (dont do it anymore, and dont play the pally anymore either) so agro wasnt really the concern, just wanted enough to keep it off the other boxes.

Also we need to look at what you can do vs what you currently do. I know on the sk I have 2 diff play styles, one for max dps, and one for max agro. They are not the same, and depending on the situation is when I use what. especially with the new changes to alliances, good lord!

Last edited by sojero; 04-27-2017 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:19 AM   #27
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Except you should always have VOT on and we cannot keep Marrs on 5 targets without smoking crack between pulls.

Valiant is a proactive tool, like a lifetap outside of dicho for SK, paladin Dicho and Grief/Sorrow handle reactive healing.

If we wait to use Valiant until we need a heal then that's a playstyle thing, but at that point it's a heal that makes aggro not an aggro tool that has a heal.

Foa doesn't have a kknock back

Also your list doesn't include Deceitful which there is never a reason not to use it, I can't think of the last time I was on a raid where there wasn't space to drag trash away from anything that got mezzed (lol mez).

And who the hell mezzes shit in the group game?
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:34 AM   #28
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Except you should always have VOT on and we cannot keep Marrs on 5 targets without smoking crack between pulls.

Valiant is a proactive tool, like a lifetap outside of dicho for SK, paladin Dicho and Grief/Sorrow handle reactive healing.

If we wait to use Valiant until we need a heal then that's a playstyle thing, but at that point it's a heal that makes aggro not an aggro tool that has a heal.

Foa doesn't have a kknock back

Also your list doesn't include Deceitful which there is never a reason not to use it, I can't think of the last time I was on a raid where there wasn't space to drag trash away from anything that got mezzed (lol mez).

And who the hell mezzes shit in the group game?
You should only need to keep marrs on 1 or 2, not all 5.

I agree valiant is a proactive tool in most situations, and I explained why I would use it as a reactive. But in the lineup it is a proactive.

Deceitful is less agro than the other stuff, thus why I didnt put it in there, I only included the top 5 that could be chained for the 30 seconds.

Our guild doesnt drag shit away, but then again we dont mez much of anything either.

In the group game my normal group mezzes all the time. We have found that it doesnt make a kill time difference, because sk bard ranger druid(or shm) ench (or wiz) and merc usually. We dont have AE damage, so the bard pull 10-15, mezzes and we kill them all one at a time, about 20 sec a mob. Bard keeps us fully supplied, and its almost as fast as ae groups. For the very minimal speed up (1-2 sec per mob maybe) its not worth the risk, and we get to talk in voice chat more that way too.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:25 PM   #29
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Idk unless I am grouped with another tank i don't use FOD.

On raids it's still crush crush VD BV Cons, with AF taking place of laudation, and getting moved up the spell order to infront of VD. The thing is there isn't a paladin in the world that is pulling mobs off an SK or warrior using harmonious, idgaf what you do outside of unbroken.

You can bust off Hallowed into Beacon spam your shit on recast and still be at 1 on the aggro meter. That's fucked up no way around that.

That shit is ridiculous EZmode and that's why those threads exist and people cry.

Also given that our DPS was just absolutely demolished (about 35 to 40% of what it was on a once night burn which is ridiculous) its not like we have anything more pressing to do on raids.

Maybe every once in awhile we can splash, but even that is of minimal effect If your guild has shaman. Surge or swell wtf combined with alliances absolutely have EZ moded area healing if your guild has any sense.

So then it's just well fuck I can load Blessed Light Burst and Touch and jerk off in a corner healing someone that probably doesn't need it that badly anyway. Or say fuck that I'll just log out.

Basically unless they nerf or boost the retarded shit there's little value in a paladin.

We still do alright in the group game, if we are playing with slackers that don't give a fuck about doing their job, so everything is fine obviously. Because we sure as fuck won't have mana to sustain the playstyle that is required to hold aggro with people who care about doing their job l.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiftie View Post
Oh yes I have such a hard time comprehending your elite numerical bullshit for aggro.

Here some math you might be able to appreciate at the pace you listed because we are throwing actual play styles out the window for mass spamming hate that's 22k mana every 30 sec at the least.a++ would do again
Oh I missed this lil gem!

Evidently you do have trouble with numbers:

(1) its 21048 - before AAs kick in - 17891 afterwards
(2) 40% of that is from 1 spell that you all insist SKs include
(3) our line when including taps that you all so insist on plus adding back in the bite recourse is 23442 before AAs, 19926 afterwards
(4) mana consumption only gets worse when SKs add in DD or DB.

Try again.
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