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Old 03-17-2014, 05:35 PM   #1
zarzac
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Default CRT - Spell needs post

I can't post the replys unless OK'd, if there are any, but I put this up for next expansion new spell ideas on CRT forum. Please discuss and let me know of other ideas/concerns. I went through old threads and tried to gather as many ideas as a could of things that have not yet been implemented. ************************************************ SK Spell rework – I realize that there most likely will not be time for anything like this, but I would like to make this an overall summation how SK’s need to have our spell lineup changed, of which you perhaps can pick and choose going forward. Data Basis: The straightforward Gribble HA missions are stated to be done with 3p+3m. These missions are stated to be completed in 30-45 minutes. This puts you for easy math/rounding at about 1 minute per mob. At 1min per mob we get maybe 1 or 2 dots. Just like issues you resolved in the past with necros and shaman, long dots have a minimal functionality in the group game. The issue is this was never resolved for SK’s. In addition to the base group issue, SK’s are further hindered by the fact that transitioning to the raid game our long dots still have little to no use as they are so underpowered as compared to other classes. Therefore our current lineup has multiple dot spells have minimal use in today’s game at all. This is something that has continued to get worse over time as our class began as a type of hybrid class that simply doesn’t mesh well at all in today’s game. All classes have in some way became hybrids. We can’t be a “hybrid DPS/Tank class” there is just no room in that space for us to fill. There is no room to put our DPS at significantly level higher than WAR/PAL without infringing on the next tier DPS classes. We either do tank level DPS or we do DPS level DPS. There is no real “hybrid” approach to this. It is for this reason I feel the class needs a new vision of where to go moving forward. The first step I think is to rework our lineup to something that fits with today’s game. The second step, that I do not have a good answer for, is giving SK’s a “we are going to have problems with this event because we don’t have an SK to ____________” ability. I think with swarming removed from the game that now is the time to make these issues right. Over time it has been stated that swarming “was considered” in our balance equation. Now that it is removed maybe we can work on that raid niche and moving forward with the class. Rangers / Zerks took the swarm nerf as well, but still have a nice big hit DPS ability on certain mobs. SK’s just took the nerf, though thankfully not as large as originally intended. Step 1: Spell realignment: I feel currently SK’s have an odd set of tools that is in dire need of condensing. I didn't go through every spell as a need/no need but in general I think our lineup needs to look more like the below suggestions. Disease Dot/Debuff: Use as first tag – InstantCast – 2s recast - High Aggro + Aggro Dot – str/ac/poi/dis debuff – No Damage. Something similar to what we have but new and unique. This dot gives us solid tanking tool that fits with class lore. Poison Dot: High Damage short duration dot change to “fast damage” group damage model with very high 2 tick damage –on raid mobs. SK’s shouldn’t need, and often aren’t allowed, to dot raid mobs. Corruption Dot: High Damage short duration dot change to “fast damage” group damage model with very high 2 tick damage –on raid mobs. SK’s shouldn’t need, and often aren’t allowed, to dot raid mobs. Perhaps with an extra XX damage to animals/humans (not plants please make that go away). Snare Dot: Similar to current. Disease Spear: Quick cast helps but base refresh is still long. Corruption Spear: We are in dire need another DD for damage delivery. Big Tap: 1.5s is too long. If we can move our sustain tap to .5s cast, 1s on this one makes sense. Sustain Tap: 1.5s is way too long. SK life tap line is currently disadvantaged to only heal us and not TOT. It should have the advantage of being a faster casting spell at a .5s cast. Dot Tap: A decade long laughable spell needs to be adjusted to relevance. What if we remove the damage altogether and make it a high agro dot with a 3-4k tick heal recourse for 4-6 ticks would make it more in line with what would be needed and useful. Jolt: Need one or 2 changes here I believe. As the SK hate spell offers no secondary benefit like a stun I would like to see this spell either 1-made instant or 2-Combine the hate effect with Theft of Agony spell for AC tap. This way just one spell is needed. The later would probably be the better way to go balance wise, though the instant would far be preferred. AE Jolt – With the damage mobs do now the cast time is simply too long. As it is, you are better served relying on your aa ae jolts along with our single target taunt abilities for adds. For this spell to become viable, as well as a SK class niche unique ability again, we really need the cast time lowered substantially. 1/2s cast is really where it needs to be at this point to give a strong ae aggro advantage to SK's which I feel is needed to set us apart from other tanks. Buffs: Small issue but pet haste is occasionally being blocked by torrent of agony. Please raise the AC buff on all versions of the Gift spell line to be at minimum 1 AC higher than Torrent3 AC return to prevent this. I don’t feel this should really be “choice” type spell as 5-7 more AC is not going to overpower our pet. Mana/Attack buffs should be close to one expansion removed ranger/nec buff levels. Attack buff on Gloomhaze is close to 90-95 level RNG buff now. Our mana buff however has fallen completely out of touch with the game and still at Omens of War power levels. Perhaps set data on both self buff levels to be matched to 1 expansion level below copies of the buffs they mimic to make it easy to keep up with. Discs: Disc’s have been going in the right direction and do not see any need for change there. Step 2: Raid utility. I don’t have a real good answer here, but I hope that the team could come up with something. I will however offer some suggestions/ideas. Soul Flay and the mana recourse idea I think is very good starting theory. However, forcing us to chain cast lifetaps to resupply mana is only a small step away from being necro mana batteries; and nobody at all liked that role. I assure you, no SK’s wants a mana battery role unless it can be done in conjunction with normal play. We do not in any way want it locking us into casting a spell that serves a completely unrelated purpose to achieve added group mana. Perhaps giving soul flay a shot at procing with any dd/tap/dot spell at a lower rate would be a better solution. Some new spell ideas: Aggro Viral DOT give unique SK way to pick up raid adds. MUCH less powerful now that swarming is removed from game. Fear line – Return the fear spell line as a unique way for us to dangerously “control” adds. Some adds could be made stunnable/no fear and some made fear/no stun as well as mez/no mez. This would make us more useful especially if a no mez/no stun/fearable hard hitting add was put into a raid as well as add an element to figuring out new raids. Push/Pull something class unique to make use of new gravity tools. Feared In Death – New Buff – On the death of the SK a slightly more powerful Project of Doom (SwarmPetDGSKProj) spawns, aggros, and attacks the mob that killed the SK. Install Nightmare – New Buff – upon damaging the SK there is xx% chance per hit that a (terror mob of some sort) will appear. The terror mob will take agro(Unbroken Acrimony type effect) and have enough hp to take about 3s-6s of damage from a lv 100 mob (adjust by expansion) or despawn after 1 tick. Synergy - tons of options here – we do X which makes other class/classes Y a whole lot better. I think from a lore perspective this doesn’t need to be us “helping” as much as it is us “piling on” or kicking a man while he is down/shooting someone in the back type of thing. Ex: Harm touch dot effect could add solid % damage to subsequent HT casts. Corrupted flesh (DISC) – Adds X counters to mob that will add Y% damage to the next # hits of type Z. Embrace Corruption (Corruption/Poison/Disease) – Group Spell - Removes one Corruption/Poison/Disease effect from of each group member and heals the SK for xx for every DoT component that was removed (or a flat amount if that can’t be coded) – Alternate version casts a buff that blocks next C/P/D spell with message that “{SKName} has absorbed your corruption” Link to this thread from forums.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:16 PM   #2
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one major correction: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...41&source=Live Call of Gloomhaze: 2: Increase ATK by 436 7: Decrease Hitpoints by 39 per tick http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...68&source=Live Shout of the Predator: 2: Increase ATK by 350 9: Increase Double Attack by 4% so, our atk buff is actually fine. IMO there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for our 'mini lich' spell to be giving less mana per tick than the equivalent level enchanter mana buff, given as how the lack of secondary buffs and the hp reduction are trade-off enough on their own. my thoughts on the Bond line: 1. add hot heal boost/crit AA lines. or 2. boost the hot to an equivalent per-tick heal of the average amount a paladin would get from a hot with full AA support. in addition to either/both of the above: 3. make bond auto-cast the heal recourse on our pet. or remove this spell entirely, and put in a low recast efficiency tuned lifetap. on Terrors: the terror line needs diversification more than anything else, simply using a successively further back incarnation of the same spell is boring game play design. i don't think that instant cast terrors are necessary, but i'd like to see multiple versions of Terror per level spread. such as: Terror of Baseline: 0.5 cast, 6s recast, X amount of hate, will always proc Cascading Theft of Defense rune. Terror of Debuff: 1.0 cast, 12s recast, less than X amount of hate, puts a 2-4 swing -70% accuracy debuff on the target. Terror of Acrimony: 0.5 cast, 24s recast, more than X amount of hate, puts a 3s-6s duration acrimony effect on the target, forcing it to attack the SK. AE hate: quite frankly this is now inferior to every way to assiduous deflection excepting when you need to chain ae hate on mezzed targets. as such this should either be largely buffed to make the increased recast and cast time worth it (a big rune, or making a 1-2 tick mez ala the old necro mez, or vastly bumping the hate amount - i'm talking like +200-500% over current)), or make the cast 0.5s and the recast 6s and put it on a shared timer with the baseline Terror (or don't even put it on a shared timer, whatever).
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:02 PM   #3
zarzac
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Thanks on ranger I was looking at their self buff. (Protection of the Copse) Bond I was thinking that an added tick or so would balance out healing over time if ours lasted longer. Terror options is really nice will add that. Like hate options as well for AE.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarzac View Post
Bond I was thinking that an added tick or so would balance out healing over time if ours lasted longer.
here is the major problem with bond spells as they stand: Bond of Ralstok: Increase Hitpoints by 946 per tick for 7 ticks 1149 mana 5.7 heal/mana ratio base, 9460 healing base per minute. Touch of Falsin: 4043 base damage 1542 mana 12.5 recast 2.6 heal/mana ratio base, 16,172 healing base per minute. but factor in magic focus and crits and crit heals and i'd say you're looking at approximately 2.5 - 3.0x that number, which would be (using 2.5 for the sake of being generous to Bond): 10,107 base damage 1542 mana 12.5 recast 6.5 heal/mana ratio, 40,428 healing per minute. Dire Insinuation: 7879 base damage 3162 mana 24 recast 2.6 heal/mana ratio base, 15,578 healing base per minute. magic focus and crits and crit heals and i'd say you're looking at approximately 2.5 - 3.0x that number, which would be (using 2.5 for the sake of being generous to Bond): 19,697 base damage 3162 mana 24 recast 6.2 heal/mana ratio, 39,394 healing per minute. so, in conclusion... Bond is very VERY slightly ahead in over-time efficiency if you only consider base healing, though it's a good 50% short when it comes to healing power in terms of both amount healed and burst potential. but when you factor in focus/crits, it's woefully and pathetically underpowered. in order for Bond to match overall healing per minute of the direct taps it would need to heal for no less than 3800 per tick. even if it healed for that much there is a very big question as to why you would use it at all, given that it would only be matching the taps in terms of efficiency and still losing horribly in terms of burst or on-demand healing. IMO for the spell to be worth bothering with at all it would need one or more of the following adjustments to the healing (leaving the dot portion as it is): A. increase healing on current iteration to 3600/3800/4000 per tick for ranks 1, 2, and 3, leaving the mana cost and duration as is. B. increase the healing on current iteration to 4150/4400/4650 per tick for rank 1, 2, and 3, reduce the duration to 4 ticks, and increase the mana by about 40-50% B would be my preference for pure spell changes, though another viable option is to create hot boost and hot crit AA lines. note: the changes above would only make Bond equivalent to our taps in terms of base - so, if no AA lines were added to support the spell, it would need to be closer to 1.5 - 1.7 of all those values i listed per tick to make it roughly on par with the taps after focus and AAs.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:27 PM   #5
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even if it healed for that much there is a very big question as to why you would use it at all, given that it would only be matching the taps in terms of efficiency and still losing horribly in terms of burst or on-demand healing.
Your maths has overlooked one piece of the equation: total healing generated per second that your gems are greyed from casting it. This is arguably the most important number of all, and certainly a lot more instructive than the per-minute healing generated by a single spell in isolation. When it comes to maximising total combined HPS for an intensive boss tanking situation, this is basically the only value that matters. Bond actually performs reasonably okay in that value by the look of it (4415 for Bond vs. 4043 for Falsin using your post-modifier numbers and assuming you already adjusted Bond duration to include the ghost tick... I can't be bothered to look up raw values on any of this shit), but it should be far and away the best of the SK healing spells in that value given its inferiority in other areas.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:25 AM   #6
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Would it be possible to get a single target version of insidious deflection. Something that has the same hate value as our single target terror but adds additional DD as well? The past few expansions it really feels like our terrors have stagnated. But that could just be because I run around with a mage and it's nearly impossible for me to keep aggro off the mage's pet.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:01 AM   #7
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Are talking about in the group game? Holding agro off a mage pet should not be a problem, if it is id think he or you are doing something wrong. I cant prove what I will say cuz I don't parse crap but I will tell you I have not used terrors in over 10 years of playing and have played with a mage with over 50k AA ( yeah stupid I know). Tell your mage buddy not to send his pet in till you have the mob back in camp. The only time Hinan's pet stops the mob is when he sends it in when I am running it back to camp. If the mob makes it back to camp, then he sends in pet I do not lose agro. On pull I cast Demand for power , instant cast blood dot, then finally use our AA darkness snare when I have mob in place. By then flatchy is on his own and im usually on the other 3 toons setting them off. I don't even have my echo of anger face mask but I do use the agro poisons on my weapon. I will also usually keep our AA voice of thule going on myself but that is even iffy with its short time ( sometimes I forget and its wore off). Which pet is he using? Hin uses either the water or air, I cannot remember (its the one with most dps he says ). I could be wrong but from my play all I can say is mage sending pet in too soon is almost always the cause of mob stopping and he knows better but slips from time to time. Use hates attraction on mob if they do that usually sets things straight.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:02 PM   #8
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I don't have a problem with the mob stopping. The mage has raid gear/focus. Its a water pet. And I don't lose aggro but the the pet is ahead of me according to the aggro meter. It's really only an issue when in close quarters. Otherwise anyone can hold aggro if they are only one in melee range with a pet on the mob. Maybe I am doing something wrong though. I use both single target terrors, AA snare in between casts, AA terrors, spears. I use VoD and Klonda as well. I also have a raid hate focus on my mask. But yes, mage pet are hard for me to hold maintain a threat lead on.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:28 PM   #9
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Whats the problem, The pet cant get hit unless you get knocked OOR. The mob won't peel off you if you lose aggro. If the pet has more aggro then you, and your in melee range, Who cares? I don't even bother fighting pets for aggro (noticed they got a huge increase to their hate generation around last expac?) its a waste of time and really theres not to many reasons you need to be #1 if the pet is #2. If the aggro meter is you at 90% the pet at 100%, but everyone else is at 20% to 30% whats the harm?
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:07 PM   #10
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None unless you are fighting in a place where people are in melee range and you get pushed outta of melee range by multiple things you are tanking. Really only an issue when boxing. Anyways, I still think it would be nice if we had a terror that also did damage.
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